An attempt at a tactically interesting Tier-3 Fighter Class

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Dean
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An attempt at a tactically interesting Tier-3 Fighter Class

Post by Dean »

So this is my attempt at designing a highly customizable, Tier 3, fairly tactical Fighter class which is intended to offer lots of player choice round-by-round in combat and have enough tactical versatility to be valid up till about 12th level and ideally even beyond in actual combat with monsters.
Now I know it's a lot of writing but give it a try, I think I achieved most of my design goals with reasonable elegance and would really love feedback on this one.
I will admit it is a WIP and that I'm super aware that what it could really use is an upgraded form of "Warriors Focus Abilities" possibly called "Master Warriors Focus Abilities" which would be significantly more powerful and would become available around level 10 or so. However I think this is in a solid and understandable place right now and definitely worth posting even if it isn't in it's absolutely final form yet.
Remember in critique if you will that I desired it to be Tier 3. This will not compete with Tier one characters and isn't really intended to. This is more designed to be used in slightly more traditional D&D games. So essentially I want it to be something that could get by DM's that would allow Bo9S to allow people to play actual Fighters who were interesting, fun, and valid. Anyway, without further ado, enjoy.
"True Fighter"
(Hereafter just reffered to as "fighter")

Hit Die- d10.
Skill Points- 4 + Int modifier.
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis) Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).
BAB: Good
Fortitude: Good
Reflex: Good
Will: Poor

Table: Fighter
Level-- Special Abilities
1st-- Warrior's Focus, Warrior’s Focus Ability, Bonus Feat
2nd-- Combat Style (2 styles)Style feat
3rd-- Warrior's Focus Ability
4th-- Style Feat
5th-- Warriors Focus Ability
6th-- Learning Ease, Style feat
7th-- Warrior's Focus Ability
8th-- Style feat
9th-- Warrior's Focus Ability, Style Fluidity
10th-- Combat Style Mastery(4 styles), Style feat
11th-- Warrior's Focus Ability
12th-- Style feat
13th-- Warrior's Focus Ability
14th-- Style feat
15th-- Warrior's Focus Ability
16th-- Style feat
17th-- Warrior's Focus ability, Greater Style Fluidity
18th-- Style feat
19th-- Warrior's Focus Ability
20th-- Style feat

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency- A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats- At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

Warrior's Focus (Ex)-At third level, a fighter in combat enters a focused mental state called the Warrior's Focus. If the Fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a Swift Action to enter the Warrior's Focus. A Fighter may end this state as an immediate action to make a desperate effort to ignore some attack, allowing him to roll two d20's and choose the higher one when making a save. If not ended voluntarily the fighter leaves the Warrior's Focus whenever the stressful situation ends. At the end of the round after a Fighter voluntarily ends his Warrior's Focus he is fatigued for 2 rounds, and may not re-enter his Warrior's Focus state during those rounds.

Combat Style(2 Styles) (Ex)- At level 2, the Fighter develops two distinct fighting styles, which he may name as he sees fit, but will be referred to here as Black Style and White Style. At every level the Fighter receives the "Style feat" feature (level 2 and every 2 levels after) the Fighter gains one feat for each of his 2 styles. The Fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a Style feat he gains, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. Previous style feats can be used to meet these requirements, but it must be from the same style. (You can not use a Black Style feat to qualify you for a feat in White Style). Additionally, the Fighter may qualify for prestige classes with style feats, however, he can only use abilities from that prestige class while using the style that contains the feat used to meet the class prerequisite.

At any given time, the Fighter will be using one, and only one, of his combat styles. The Fighter will only be able to use the feats from the one style he is currently using on a given turn. The Fighter may switch between combat styles as a move action. Effectively this will give the Fighter two seperate "pools" of feats, only one of which can he ever have active at a given time.

Learning Ease (Ex)- At 6th level, the Fighter's training shows itself, and his dedication allows him to gain access to abilities that would normally be beyond the scope of one with his attributes. The Fighter counts all of his ability scores as +4 for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.

Warrior's Focus Special Ability - At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter the Fighter gains a Warrior's Focus Special Ability. These special abilities allow the Fighter to use his Warrior's Focus state in new ways, described in the abilities below.

Style Fluidity(Ex) - At 9th level, the Fighter's ability to shift between his combat styles improves, allowing him to switch between styles as a swift action rather than a move action. The Fighter may still switch styles as a Move Action if he wishes.

Combat Style Mastery(4 Styles) (Ex)- At level 10, the Fighter's 2 styles become more distinct, each one diverging into two more separate styles: White Style-1 and White Style-2, and Black Style-1 and Black Style-2. At 10th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the Fighter gains a bonus feat for each of his four Combat Styles. Each of these styles will be offshoots of the original style and will contain the feats of their original style. (The 4 feats that make up White Style will also be the first 4 feats of both White Style-1 and White Style-2, although the fifth will be different for both. So to will the first 4 feats of Black Style-1 and Black Style-2 be composed of whatever feats made up the original Black Style, though again the fifth will differ)

Greater Style Fluidity(Ex)- At 17th level, the Fighter's mastery of his combat styles peaks. He gains the ability to switch between styles as a free action on his turn, and may choose to change it as an immediate action otherwise.
Warriors Focus Abilities
Acrobatic Assailant: You tumble and leap, swirling around your opponent in a deadly dervish dance. You may now tumble at full speed with no penalty. You also gain the "Everywhere at Once" ability which allows you to take a -2 penalty to your AC for a round to count as occupying both the space you start in, and the space you make your attack in/end in for the purposes of calculating flanking for the duration of your turn. Meaning that if you start your turn on one side of a creature and tumble to its opposing side before making your attacks you count as flanking the creature for yourself. You may expend your Warriors Focus to redirect one enemy attack. Before the enemy rolls an attack expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action. You may then redirect the enemy attack onto anyone (excepting the original attacker) who is adjacent to you. You may, if you wish, before redirecting the attack move both you and the attacker into a more advantageous position by moving you both 5ft in a direction of your choosing as if you had taken a 5ft foot step and your opponent had taken an immediate 5ft follow.
Berserker Charge: You crash down onto your opponents with murderous force, few men can stand before your charge. You may make a single turn as a part of your charge action allowing you to charge around corners and obstacles. You also gain the "Death From Above" ability, which allows you to sacrifice the +2 to attack from a charge to make a jump check as part of the charge. If your attack is successful you deal an additional +1 damage for every 5 points your jump check exceeded zero. You cannot add more than +10 damage to the attack in this manner. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to count as if you have the Pounce ability. If you already have the Pounce ability you may expend your Warriors Focus to gain an additional attack on the charge.
Bludgeoning Weapons Expert: Your blows concuss and batter even the hardiest of opponents into broken heaps. From now on any time you make a critical hit with a bludgeoning weapon your opponent is automatically Staggered for a turn. Additionally you gain the "Bash" ability, which allows you to take a full round action to make a single attack on a creature no larger than 1 size category above you. If successful the attack slams the opponent back 10ft provoking attacks of opportunity as a normal move would. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action before making an attack with a bludgeoning weapon. The attack gains a +2 to hit and if it is successful your opponent must make a DC15+level Fortitude save or fall prone, granting combat advantage, and count as stunned for 1 round. If the bludgeoning attack you made was a critical hit and the creature failed its save it is stunned for 1 round and staggered next round.
Dead or Alive: Dead men tell no tales and sometimes you want explanations, so you've learned to take targets alive. You no longer take penalties to deal nonlethal damage on an attack and gain the "Knockout" ability which allows you against any creature you are flanking or have combat advantage against to make a single melee attack as a full round action to deal an additional 1d6 nonlethal damage for every 3 levels you have (round up). You may expend your Warriors Focus to make a single melee attack as a full round action against any creature you are flanking or have combat advantage against, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack and deal an additional 1d6 damage (lethal or nonlethal) per level you have.
Duelist: You have mastered the art of one on one combat, the ebb and flow of facing down a single opponent in a mortal duel. You gain the "Dueling Stance" ability, which requires a move action to activate and grants you a +2 bonus to AC against one opponent that you declare but a -2 AC against all others for one round. You also gain the "Riposte" ability which applies a -2 to your AC but allows you to make an additional secondary attack, however you may only make this attack if an opponent misses you with a melee attack. Your attack is resolved on the opponents turn immediately following the missed attack you've chosen to Riposte. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to make 2 melee attacks at your secondary BAB.
Duck and Cover: You dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge to keep yourself out of harms way. You count as having Evasion and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against traps. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to count as if you have Improved Evasion for a turn.
Foil Enemies: You disrupt, distract, and damage your enemies at the worst of times, and you're a tremendous ally for it. From now on any large or smaller sized opponent you hit with a ranged attack on your turn counts as flanked to all of your allies. You must deal damage to the creature for this effect to function. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to "Foil" an enemy action by making a ranged touch attack with a weapon of your choice to stop a single action that an enemy within range has just declared. You make the attack immediately, it deals only a single point of damage (which ignores DR) but if it hits the target must make a DC15+level Will save or lose the action they had just declared. A Fighter may not disrupt an action that is partially completed, meaning they cannot disrupt a move that is partially complete. A Fighter disrupting an attack, whether a Full attack or a Standard attack, may only eliminate a single attack of his choice as opposed to disrupting the entire action. If an opponents action is successfully foiled then the foiled action is completely wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended.
Hail of Arrows: You rain arrows down onto your enemies, hails of deadly bolts putting anything within your sight in danger. You gain the "Hail of Fire" ability, which applies a -4 to all of your attacks this round but grants an additional ranged attack at your highest BAB. You must be using a bow or crossbow to benefit from this ability. You may expend your Warriors Focus as a Full Round action to double the number of attacks you have in a normal full attack. Additional attacks are are not doubled but added on to the total. You may not however spend more than 2 attacks on any given target being instead required to spread your shots to accomodate your tremendous speed. Any shots you cannot use are wasted.
Heavy Armor Mastery: Your armor is like a second skin to you, and you move like you were born inside of it. You reduce all armor skill penalties by 2 and gain the "Cover Up" ability, which allows you to take a -2 to your attacks for the round to gain Damage Reduction/Adamantine equal to 1/3 your class level (rounded up). You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to gain +4 to your AC for an entire round, this ability must be declared before any given attack on you is rolled.
Hunt the Airborne: You gain a variety of skills meant to combat flying attackers. You gain the feats "Throw Anything" and "Weapon Recovery". You may also expend your Warriors Focus after hitting a flying creature to send it hurtling towards the ground. The creature is entitled to a DC 15+level reflex save to ignore the effect but if it fails the creature falls from its current height taking falling damage as appropriate and, if it flew by natural means (wings, etc), it may not fly again this encounter unless it recieves healing of some kind
Hunt the Unnatural: You fight that which is not natural to the mundane world. You wear protective trinkets and have the blessings of a dozen priests and witches to keep you safe from things out of the mortal realm. Your attacks affect incorporeal creatures normally. When fighting invisible creatures you only count them as being in normal concealment against your attacks, and invisible creatures do not gain combat advantage on you automatically. You also gain the "Fend Off The Unnatural" ability, which allows you to take a standard action (which you spend focusing intensely/praying/holding particular protective baubles or trinkets) to grant yourself Spell Resistance equal to 5+your level. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to grant yourself Spell Resistance equal to 15+level against one spell.
Leader of Men: You are a natural leader, you command and other obey, and your shouts on the battlefield are heeded by allies and troops alike. You gain a series of abilities all of which take a swift action to use to shout a quick command at one ally, who may follow your order for some benefit. You gain "Watch Yourself" which grants one ally a +2 bonus to AC if they fight defensively this turn. You gain "Flank em!" which grants one ally a +2 bonus to attacks made while flanking a creature. Finally you gain "Be Strong" which can be used as an immediate action to grant a creature a +2 bonus to saves against fear based effects for one turn. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to grant one person within 100ft who can hear or see you one of the following benefits: a move action, a +2 bonus to all attacks this turn, a +2 bonus to AC this turn. The use of this ability must be declared before any given attack is made by or against a given character.
Light Armor Mastery: You move fast and use what little protection you wear to its best advantage. You gain +1 AC when wearing light armor of any kind and you gain the "Cover Up" ability, which allows you to take a -2 to your attacks for the round to gain Damage Reduction/Adamantine equal to 1/3 your class level (rounded up). You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to gain +4 to your AC for an entire round, this ability must be declared before any given attack on you is rolled.
Longarms Specialist: You spin and twirl your polearm with devastating efficiency. You move constantly while striking out with your chosen weapon, a perfect combination of defense and attack. While wielding a weapon that grants you reach you may use the blunt end of your weapon to deal bludgeoning damage at no negative, you also gain the "Pole Vault" ability which grants you a +4 to jump checks with a reach weapon in hand, and finally you gain the feat "Hold the Line". You may expend your Warriors Focus as a Full Round action to make a single attack on every enemy within reach. You count your reach as being +5ft higher than normal for the purpose of this attack.
Master Tactician: You are a brilliant strategist who counts his mind foremost amongst his weapons. You gain the "Assess" ability, which allows you to determine the challenge posed to you by an enemy or group of enemies. As a swift action make a Sense Motive check or an untrained Intelligence check VS a DC equal to 10+the opponents CR to determine if the enemy is weaker than you (lower CR than your level), approximately equal (equal CR to your level), or stronger (higher CR). You may assess a group of opponents in a given situation the same way. Simply make the same check except instead of comparing a single opponents CR compare the encounters ECR to your groups level and proceed the same way. You also gain the "Master Plan" ability. If you can prepare for an encounter you may spend at least 1 minute (longer if the DM requires) creating a master plan which requires you to make an untrained intelligence check. Once created you choose when to enact your plan in the encounter, at which time every ally of yours (including you) gains a +1 bonus on all attacks and skill checks for 2 rounds. This bonus increases by +1 for each 10 points your intelligence check exceeded DC10. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to increase your attacks, AC, saves, or skill checks by +2 for one round, chosen at the time of activation. This ability must be declared before any given attack on you is rolled.
Mental Shield: You've trained your mind to resist intrustion and shake off attempts at magical enchantment and control. You gain the Mettle ability and gain an additional +2 to Will saves made to resist enchantment effects. You may expend your Warrior's Focus as an immediate action to count as if you have Improved Mettle for a turn.
Medium Armor Mastery: You're able to move quickly and deftly in armour that would slow others down. You ignore the -5ft speed reduction associated with medium armor and reduce armor skill penalties by 1. You also gain the "Cover Up" ability, which allows you to take a -2 to your attacks for the round to gain Damage Reduction/Adamantine equal to 1/3 your class level (rounded up). You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to gain +4 to your AC for an entire round, this ability must be declared before any given attack on you is rolled.
Mind Games: Your words are just another weapon to you. You gain both "Frighten" and "Goad" as abilities. You may target a single intelligent opponent who can both hear and understand you. Both abilities take a move action to use and grant DC 10+level Will save to ignore their effects. If you use "Frighten" the target is shaken and remains so until it makes the save at the end of a given round. If you use "Goad" then the opponent is forced to target you with any attacks made within 1 round. You may also expend your Warrior's Focus to use Frighten or Goad as an immediate action with a save DC of 15+level
Onslaught: The speed of your attacks is completely overwhelming, you're lightning fast. You gain the "Quick Attacks" ability which allows you to take a -2 to all of your attacks for a round to gain an additional secondary attack. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to gain an additional attack at your highest attack bonus
Piercing Weapons Expert: You drive your weapon deep into your opponents body mercilessly and relentlessly, piercing them with scores of mortal wounds. When using a piercing weapon you may add your Dexterity modifier to the damage you deal. You may expend your Warriors Focus to count every attack you make with a piercing melee weapon as a touch attack for a single round
Shield Expert: Your shield has saved your life more times than you can count. You ignore skill check penalties from shields and gain an extra +1 Shield bonus to your AC when using a shield and you may now add your shield bonus to your touch AC. You may expend your Warrior's Focus as an immediate action to ignore an attack made on you. The attack must be ignored before damage is resolved.
Shield Savior: Your shield defends not only you, but your allies in battle. You ignore skill check penalties from shields and gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC when using a shield and any ally adjacent to you gains an additional +1 shield bonus to their AC. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to move up to half your speed to move adjacent to an ally and ignore one attack made on that ally. The attack must be ignored before damage is resolved.
Slashing Weapons Expert: You slash and cut at your opponents, gracefully carving your weapon through your enemies flesh until they have bled their last drop of blood. You gain the ability "Slashing Fury" which grants you an additional attack at your highest BAB at a cost of -4 to all of your attacks this round. This ability can only be used with a slashing weapon. You may expend your Warriors Focus on your turn to make a horrible bloodletting wound on your opponent. Make a single attack as a Full Round action, this attack gains a +2 to hit and deals damage as normal. If your attack is successful and deals damage then your opponent is now bleeding. At the end of the creatures turn they are dealt an additional 1 point of damage for every level you have. The creature may then make a Fortitude Saving throw equal to 10+your level. If the creature makes two of these saving throws, or any one of them on a natural 20, it stops bleeding. The creature also automatically stops bleeding if it heals HP in any manner. This ability cannot be used against creatures immune to critical hits.
Sniper: Your entire mindset changes when you aim down an arrow's shaft. Your breathing slows, your muscles relax. You become one with your weapon which now spells swift death for anyone that crosses its path. You gain the "Long Shot" ability which lets you make a single attack as a full round action which reduces your range penalties by one degree, but does not increase your range. So long range attacks are made at a -2 while medium range attacks are made at no penalty. You also gain the "Sniper Shot" ability which lets you make a single attack as a full round action that reduces cover by one degree (though it cannot reduce total cover). Finally you may make a "Perfect Shot" which takes two full rounds to make but counts as both a "Long Shot" and "Sniper Shot". You may also expend your Warrior's Focus to make a single attack as a standard action that counts as a "Perfect Shot" and has an additional +5 to hit and deals an additional +1d6 damage per 2 levels you have, rounded up.
Suppresive Fire: Against the barrage of your shots enemies have to keep their heads down to keep themselves alive. Anyone you make a ranged attack against counts you as in light cover for 1 round as long as you are still armed with a ranged weapon. You may expend your Warriors Focus as a standard action to unleash a barrage of shots which requires 5 arrows/knives/bolts/etc and forces enemies to treat all allies within 50ft of you (including you) as if they were in heavy cover for 1 round.
Tactical Engagement: Your footwork in combat is excellent, pressing forwards or retreating from a blow. Your speed increases by 5ft and you gain an additional "5ft step" every turn that you may take as an immediate action, you also gain the "Lunge" ability which allows you to make a single melee attack as a full round action with an extra 5ft of reach. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to gain a move action. If you take an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity with your move action you may ignore those attacks.
Tremendous Strength: Your blows crash into your opponents, hewing flash and shattering bone. You deal additional damage on any melee attack equal to your strength modifier, and you gain a +2 bonus on bull rush checks. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to have any attacks you make this round ignore Damage Reduction Adamantine and/or Damage Reduction Silver.
True Warrior: If you miss them by an inch you've missed them by a mile, so your solution is: don't miss. You gain a +1 to all of your attacks as well as the "Reckless Offense" ability which allows you to take a -4 to your AC to add +2 to all of your melee attacks this turn. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to add +20 to one attack.
Vicious: You can bleed from a dozen wounds and smile, and you laugh terrifyingly at those who think they will be the one to finally kill you. You gain an additional healing surge and the "Dig Deep" ability which once per day allows you to use a healing surge even if you've used another in the last minute. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to add your level to the damage you deal on every attack you make this round. The opponent(s) you are targetting must have attacked you in the encounter to be dealt this extra damage, if you are targetting multiple opponents only those who have attacked you take the extra damage.
War Hero: You are immune to fear and gain the "Embolden" ability. A standard action that grants an ally within 30ft who is Panicked, Frightened, or Shaken a chance to roll a Will save DC 10+thier level to reduce the condition by one degree. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to Re-roll a die you've just rolled.
Wrestler: You're a wrestler, a grappler, a barroom brawler. Basically you're not someone to mess with. You gain the ability to use improvised weapons without taking any negatives, and you gain the "Kip up" feat allowing you to go from prone to standing as a free action. You gain a +2 bonus on any opposed strength checks, including grapple checks and you may grapple creatures up to two sizes larger than you. You may expend your Warriors Focus as an immediate action to ignore size modifiers in a grapple for one turn.


Last edited by Dean on Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
Red_Rob
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Re: An attempt at a tactically interesting Tier-3 Fighter Cl

Post by Red_Rob »

deanruel87 wrote:At the end of the round after a Fighter voluntarily ends his Warrior's Focus he is fatigued until he re-activates it, which he can only do after 2 rounds.
Does this mean fighters are always fatigued in non-stressful situations?
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Post by koz »

What are your fighter's class skills?
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Post by Dean »

Fighter's Class skills written in and Warrior's Focus wording altered to clear up confusion. Thanks Guys.
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Post by Username17 »

Combat Style(2 Styles) (Ex)- At level 4, the Fighter developes two distinct fighting styles, which he may name as he sees fit, but will be referred to here as Black Style and White Style. At every level the Fighter obtains a "Style feat" (level 2 and every 2 levels after) the Fighter gains one feat for each of his 2 styles. The Fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a Style feat he gains, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
That is incoherent. You get a style feat in each of the two styles every level, with the example being every two levels, and your two styles are chosen at level 4 and the first level where your example gives feats in the style is level 2. What. The. Fuck?

Beyond that, these appear to not be anything like the combat styles being talked about in Complete Warrior, because none of those have a BAB requirement as low as 2. So I really have no idea what you are talking about here.

But that's all secondary. The primary concern is: what the fuck is this character even supposed to do at higher levels? Having a bunch of feats, even all the feats won't actually make you viable in the post-level 10 world. There are no feats that can get you through an Acid Fog, and Greenvices just make those.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Frank, that's not a concern. "tier 3" characters aren't supposed to be able to compete past level 10.
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Post by Red_Rob »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Frank, that's not a concern. "tier 3" characters aren't supposed to be able to compete past level 10.
Original Design Goals wrote:valid up till about 12th level and ideally even beyond in actual combat with monsters.
The intention seems otherwise Catharz.

Frank makes a good point about the Style Feats. You currently learn them before you get your styles which is fairly odd.

Have you run this class through the Same Game Test? These are the challenges a fully kitted out level 10 character should be able to compete against on an even footing:

A hallway filled with magical runes.
A Fire Giant.
A Young Blue Dragon.
A Bebilith.
A Vrock.
A tag team of Mind Flayers.
An Evil Necromancer (Plus undead horde)
6 Trolls.
12 Shadows.
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Post by koz »

I think the 'style feat' wording is meant to refer to 'feats gained from the Combat Style class feature', or, more precisely 'feats that you didn't gain some other way'. It might be worth clearing up.
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Post by Dean »

The wording has been rephrased hopefully to be clearer. Also the "level 4" there was just accidental.

It's meant to work as if you have two growing chains of feats only one of which can be active at a time. This ideally allows him to still do the fighter thing of having a "trick" like charging or tripping but allows him to hopefully have 2 tricks instead of just one. That way he can pick which one he wants to do based on the situation. And if his tripping is useless do something else. Sorta thing.

As to validity past level 10-12: First of all "Level 10" is the conventional wisdom around here for the cutoff of usefulness of tier 3 type characters. I however have generally seen them be able to hold on for a couple more levels and my opinion, though it's a slight difference, is that level 12 is the break. So that's what I wrote in. I assume this is a difference in group play styles and while my groups are fairly hardcore I think they might be slightly less so than normal Tome devotees.
Once again as to "actual combat with monsters" this is a recognizing of the fact that your average party's play (meaning for "normal" game groups, not us hardcore Web and Color Spray spammer types) sees less of a drop-off in fighter usefulness in high level play than we do. Is this because they play monsters worse? Yes. Is this because they use Tier 1 and 2 characters less than optimally? Yes. Regardless this class is designed by me with the goal of it being able to be more palatable to "average DM's" while still being fun to play.

Now make no mistake I have no illusions about this classes ability to contribute meaningfully past level 12 (or 10, if that's your thing) in Tome style games. But that's not his job. My question is not how this class compares to the Wizard or the Sorcerer it's how he compares to other Tier 3 characters.
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Post by Username17 »

My question is not how this class compares to the Wizard or the Sorcerer it's how he compares to other Tier 3 characters.
That doesn't actually mean anything.

"Tier 3" isn't a real thing. There are multiple tiering systems used by different people, and there is no consistent understanding of what the tiers constitute. The guy who had the most famous tiering system had a totally dumb fuck systemology. Seriously, he just uprated classes with stupid power loops that he personally allowed and downrated classes with stupid power loops that he personally did not allow. It was totally insane and subjective.

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Post by Dean »

Ok then, How it compares in terms of power level to classes like the Rogue or Psychic Warrior
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Post by Username17 »

First of all, you have to define "feat trees" way better than you have. Like, you have to define them at all, since that's not a real in-game concept. Is Whirlwind Attack in the same "combat style" as Point Blank Shot? If not, why not? (hint: Whirlwind Attack requires Mobility as a pre-req, Point Blank Shot is a pre-req for Shot On The Run, which also requires Mobility as a pre-req).
Ok then, How it compares in terms of power level to classes like the Rogue or Psychic Warrior
Well, a Rogue can do hundreds of points of burst damage at even the initial flirtings with high level. This in turn allows them to one-round murderate many enemies of their CR at every level. Rogues are not able to easily crack the world in half (without resorting to UMD to borrow the powers of their betters), but they can pull their weight in an adventuring party out to 20th level.

What the fuck can your Fighter do? I mean over and above the fact that he is still completely incoherent, because the core of the class appears to be some sort of as-yet-undefined feat juggling thing. I mean seriously: you're confronted by a Fire Giant, what the fuck do you do? How does this class exceed the contributions of an animal companion?

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Post by For Valor »

Actually, you should be asking how it compares to:

The bard, beguiler, dread necromancer, and factotum.

THe beguiler and dread necro will walk all over this guy... a bard with Dragonfire Inspiration will act similarly... and a factotum, I'm not sure about.
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Post by koz »

For Valor wrote:Actually, you should be asking how it compares to:

The bard, beguiler, dread necromancer, and factotum.

THe beguiler and dread necro will walk all over this guy... a bard with Dragonfire Inspiration will act similarly... and a factotum, I'm not sure about.
The thing is, none of these classes are anywhere near the same benchmark. The beguiler is easily the strongest class out of these, the dread necro is a bit weaker, the bard is a lot weaker, and the factotum sucks cocks in hell.

'Comparing' this class to all of them doesn't tell you anything in terms of power level or level-appropriateness at all.
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Post by For Valor »

I assume he's balancing these guys to the brilliantgameologist tiers.

Those 4 classes are iconic tier 3 classes. The Beguiler is crazy field control (it's the best tier 3 class out there), the dread necro is tanking with his/her mooks (and using necromancy spells. Dread Necroes are actually quite good in their achtype), the bard is party synergy with Dragonfire Inspiration (PrCs into SC and Virtuoso), and the Factotum does something...

your average tier 3 class is made so that you become suck if you don't PrC out by level 10... so the class's first 10 levels should be really what we look at here.
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Post by Blicero »

But the problem is the BG tiers suck total ass as a method of balancing a class, as Frank already enumerated. JaronK mostly looked for endgame brokeness tricks and such rather than how it will actually play in most people's games. (Example: I will say that, in most games not dominated by mindless creatures, a Beguiler will be "better" than a wizard when played by a somewhat above-average player. And unless you do in fact know what you're doing, beguilers will be much better than a sorcerer or whatever.) And he sees the Factotum as "the rogue, but better" for some ungodly reason. And he fails to take into account that Archivists are more or less the DM-pity class. And that artificers are not easy to play for most of their career.

It's useless to try to rate something when the scale you're using is wildly inconsistent. Like a sound scale that has "music" on the same level as "a nuclear bomb explosion" because "some rock music gets really loud especially when you turn up the speakers."

There are really only one classification for a dnd class: "Is able to contribute played by an average or slightly above average player until level [x]."
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Post by ubernoob »

Blicero wrote:And he sees the Factotum as "the rogue, but better" for some ungodly reason
Dude, Iajutsu focus is the shit.
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Post by koz »

What Blicero said, in short. This is all quite quantifiable.

If you actually want to have a system based on something sane, you would do well to look at the Balance Points proposed by the New D&D Wiki here. These are much more meaningful and would give a better indication of what a class' power level actually means.
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Post by Dean »

A few points: First of all I figured I would explain how the feat styles thing works. It's really quite simple. At 2nd level a Fighter gets his two styles. Lets say my example fighter names these "Attack, and Defense". So at level 2 my fighter would get one feat to add to both of these styles. He chooses-

Attack: Power Attack
Defense: Dodge

So from now on with a move action he can decide if he is in Attack style, and thusly counts as having "Power attack" the feat, and in Defense style he counts as having "Dodge" the feat. At level 4 he gains an additional "Style feat" and so may add another feat he satisfies the prerequisites for to both styles. He chooses-

Attack: Power Attack, Cleave
Defense: Dodge, Toughness

From now on he may either count as having Power attack and Cleave, or as having Dodge and Toughness. And may switch which "group" of feats he has by taking a move action. As he continues to level up these feat chains will continue to grow and the effect on his character when he changes feats will grow substantially greater.

This way as the character's level grows he gains more feats in his particular styles and can specialize in multiple areas at once. So in one "chain" he could take all tripping feats, and in another all mounted combat feats. In this manner he can still do the one thing a Fighter is required to do to stay competitive: specialize a particular trick. But this way he may have a couple tricks instead of one.

I do see as to how even with good Fighter tricks in his pocket he may lack a bit behind other Tier 3's. Perhaps if he started with 2 styles, then gained a 3rd one at level 6 or 8 or so. And then a 4th by level 12 or 14. This way his styles could become more powerful and he could get even more variety in. As suddenly getting an additional group of 7 feats one is allowed to take at 14th level would allow one to automatically instantly specialize in whatever area one chose.
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Post by For Valor »

Well, if the design goal of this class is not something accepted by TGD, then that shoud be gotten straight.

How about the design goal of this class making the fighter rogue-level?
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Post by koz »

deanruel87, did you read anything any of us said regarding the fact that 'Tier 3' means absolutely nothing? Either clarify whose tiers you are using, or please make it apparent in logical, quantifiable game terms what kind of power level you want to perform at. What you're asking is akin to us making you an ice cream sundae that tastes 'like the one I saw in a comic'.
For Valor wrote: How about the design goal of this class making the fighter rogue-level?
This is something that could potentially be done, because it actually means something. The easiest way to do this would be to look at the Same Game Test and build the class around the threats that you would see there.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

In 3.5 D&D there are only a few routes for fighters: tripper, mounted charger, charger, and archer. You might as well just save the player some work by figuring out the specific advancement yourself, just as is done for the ranger. It's also easier to understand for other players. Q: 'What does your fighter do?' A: 'She's a charger/tripper'. That's easy to understand. The character charges individual foes for large amounts of damage, and then creates a stun/damage zone until she moves again. A mounted charger/archer is easy to figure out too. You lay down the same tactics that Mongolian horsemen did a thousand years ago.

A long list of feats, including random worthless ones like Dodge, is going to be a lot harder to understand at a glance.
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Post by Dean »

I did already mention that I am using Rogue as my design balance benchmark, but for clarity's sake certainly I will reiterate more clearly.

I would like to balance this class to the Rogue, or possibly to the Psychic Warrior. These are the two classes that I have seen perform well across many different formats of DnD. In magical tea party, in newbie "fighters are fine" DnD, in more hardcore "optimize or risk death" DnD, and even in Tome games. So Rogue or Psychic Warrior. If anyone considers those two as having wildly different power levels then lets say Rogue.

Now to Catharz. I initially wanted to reject the idea you were putting forward there of Fighters having only a few possible options. The point I was going to make in rebuttal was that across the many different kinds of DnD that people play those statements are not true. In TGD games that would certainly be true but I think you would find things like two weapon fighting being used in all sorts of games across the country and it being used effectively and legitimately. Remember that different games vary largely in power level and perhaps even more importantly, they vary in class level. So while a 16th level fighter would have very little use for TWF tactics a 6th level Fighter could still see a lot of mileage from a weapon in his second hand.

So I was going to say that the "free form" nature of making your own Fighting Styles with this class is what interested me in it. It would allow me to make a super AC-explosion style to just not be hit when I wanted. It would allow me to make a Robilars Gambit and Karmic Strike retributive attack style if I wanted. It could allow me to make a style of nothing but Save and HP increasers to have a style to stay in at all times to make me much less worried about SoD effects and mages.

Many of these points are still valid I feel.

HOWEVER, upon further consideration I feel that you may have a very cool idea there. The idea being, for this Fighter, instead of saying "heres a bunch of feats, get the tricks you want" to instead offer .....like...... Ability bundles. To allow every Fighter to just pick a few tricks and then automatically get specialist-level capabilities in those areas. So options could be "Charger, Archer, Mounted Charger, Mounted Archer, Grappler, Tripper (or controller or whatever we called it), Two Weapon Fighter, Defender" and each of those would come with a list of abilities unlocked at certain levels. Meaning they would operate a lot like Tome Feats. Except it would just sort of be like getting all the abilities you would need to be good at the thing that you wanted to do.

I think that might be a really cool idea.
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Post by For Valor »

It would be... but if you start thinking about things that scale... well, why not just make them [Combat] feats at that point?

And then we go back to our problem again. A Rogue-level fighter could be Bonus feats at 1, 3, 6, 9, etc. with concrete bonuses to specific things at every other empty level. Anything that scales sounds like a feat to me.
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Post by koz »

Ok, so you want to make a class that is balanced to the rogue. This is pretty easy - it means that you have to pass the SGT by a factor of 50% - meaning that half of the stuff should be something you win against, and half should be something you lose against. More precisely, about 3 should be certain wins, 3 should be certain losses, 2 should be probable wins, and 2 should be probable losses (or so).

Because designing for lower levels is a bit easier, let's begin with the level 5 SGT:
  • A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
  • A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
  • A Basilisk in its desert burrow.
  • A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
  • A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
  • A Phase Spider anywhere. They're tricky creatures like that.
  • A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
  • A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
  • A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
  • A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.
These translate roughly as follows into 'rules-speak', respectively:
  • A non-combat or skill-based encounter
  • A single very big monster
  • A single tough monster with unusual abilities
  • A single very tough monster with a lot of resistances/immunities/hit points
  • A single creature with an unusual ability to evade attacks
  • A single puzzle monster
  • A few monsters with an unusual ability to evade attacks
  • A pair of monsters designed to work well together
  • A small group of ordinary beatstick monsters
  • A spellcaster with options and weedy minions.
So before you proceed, you need to decide which of these will correspond to which. Ideally, you don't wanna be deciding these things 'blindly' - instead, you want to have a good idea of how you want the class to perform in terms of how people would describe them. This will make determining this easier.

After this, write five levels of the class. No really - only five. At the end of those five levels, your class' abilities should give you the SGT results that you want. Don't have the class rely on items beyond the minimum necessary (stuff like a magic weapon and magic armour with +s is OK, but something like an artifact sword is definitely not), and assume competent feat selections.

After this, repeat this for the level 10 SGT and the level 15 SGT.

Now, some general tips which I have found help me design stuff:
  • I know this is trite, but keep it simple, stupid. Don't write abilities that involve a lot of tracking of variables, maths that requires anything more complex than addition or subtraction, or generally anything that reminds people of Incarnum.
  • Abilities should be of the 'do Y type', as opposed to 'do X, but better'. While 'do X, but better' abilities are not bad to have occasionally, the class should not entirely or mostly consist of them.
  • Gaining a level in the class should feel meaningful - don't just give out random numbered bonuses and expect people to like it. Levels should feel like levels of something like binder, and not like fighter 5.
  • Spells of the appropriate level are a good balance point, but not all spells are born equal. Using fireball as a balance point for an ability gained at character level 5 is a joke, but using greater shivering touch is just as ridiculous, if for the totally opposite reason.
  • By 7th level, a character should have the ability to deal with flyers. If you don't, your class is weak.
  • By 11th level, you're in superhero land. If your character is not getting abilities to compete in superhero land, you're doing it wrong.
  • By 16th level, you're in demi-deity land. See above.
  • Your character should be able to handle Save or Dies at 10th level or so. If you don't, your class is weak.
  • The character should be genuinely interesting to play. Spamming the same ability over and over 4E style is not interesting. Relying on one trick to do everything is not interesting. Having a range of options is interesting. Having more than one way to solve a problem is interesting. Having abilities that relate to stuff outside of combat is interesting.
And now, some things people worry about needlessly in design that you shouldn't:
  • Don't worry about making an ability at-will, especially if it doesn't have a massive duration or huge gamechanging effect. Nobody gives a damn about at-will polar ray at any level.
  • Don't worry about giving fighting guys a lot of (or even all) good base saves. They need them more than anyone.
  • MAD is bad. Try and not make your class rely on more than two ability scores ever.
  • Don't worry about giving martially-based classes abilities that seem 'magical'. Quite frankly, once you get to certain levels, that kinda stuff is obligatory, and we have plenty of source material to suggest that even at lower levels, this kinda thing is fine.
  • If you can give out abilities that can be used outside of combat, more power to you.
  • Fighting men need their skills. 6+Int is not actually that many when Intelligence is not your primary, secondary or possibly even tertiary ability score. Additionally, don't be afraid to give fighting guys Knowledge skills, or other utility skills - they need them, AND it makes sense (come on, a fighting guy who can't identify his enemies? Seriously?)
Once you've got the first five levels written up, post it here, and the Denizens will look over it, suggest you fellate your paternal ancestors, and provide some critique to make them better.
Last edited by koz on Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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